Oh that wacky Summers family

[rallamajoop]

The first issue of that X-Sanction thing came out earlier this month, and while I have very little interest in picking it up I’m hardly going to pretend I wasn’t curious about how they’re justifying this whole Cable-comes-back-from-the-dead-to-kill-the-Avengers-thing, so I've been reading some reviews. So far, no great surprises. Cable is – for the second time in three years – suddenly not dead for no well-established reason. He really is out to kill all the Avengers because on his latest visit to the future he found out they’re somehow responsible for preventing Hope from saving the world. The twist, if you can call it a twist, is that he’s in a particular hurry to get all this done because he has only hours left to live before the TO infection kills him.

That’s right folks, Marvel is all set to kill off Nathan Summers for the third time.

(All this when only last week I was having Deadpool spout off a line about how one more death and they’ll be able to use him to teach the kiddies to count on Sesame Street. My hand to god, I honestly thought I was kidding.)

There comes a point in the life of every indignantly over-invested comic-book-fan where you’ve just got to throw up your hands and laugh. This is very much one of those times.

In all seriousness though, part of the shame here is that I think there is a good story buried somewhere in the concept. Sending Cable up against a team of opponents who punch well above his weight class with nothing but a cache of future tech and his own cunning and to work with is exactly the kind of concept that could work as a Cable story, especially if you keep the question of why he’s doing it hazy for the opening chapters. Send him to take on a team like the Avengers, however, and it all falls apart. Yeah, it’s a great way to emphasise the stakes, but we know from the outset that not only is he going to fail, no more than maybe a few small-name players are even in danger. There’s no way big names like Iron Man or Captain America are ever going down in a mini-event like this. Even on the scale of excuses to make heros fight other heros, you have to admit this one’s pretty weak. Are we really supposed to believe Cable is so stupid as to think it’s going to be easier to defeat every last one of Earth’s mightiest heros in a matter of hours than it would be to convince them not to do whatever it is that’s going to screw over the future?

That’s not to say the arc’s necessarily unsalvageable, with three issues left for plot twists left to come. Maybe the TO’s gotten so far inside Cable’s brain that he really has lost it; maybe everything he thought he knew about the future was all nefarious misdirection from some unknown source. Maybe there are even more convoluted time shenanigans involved than we thought, and we really don’t need an explanation for how Cable is alive again at all. Who knows, maybe the big twist is that he’s not going to die at the end of the event. But realistically speaking, all X-Sanction is truly obligated to deliver is another three issues of action in lead-up to the next big event, and ‘stick around for the possibility that there’s going to be a coherent explanation for all this shit!’ is not much of a hook.

But hey, all those crack Cable resurrection scenarios I keep coming up with are probably still going to be canon compliant by March. If anything, with three deaths already under his belt a comedy-resurrection may well be the only option left. Can’t complain too much about that.

Comments

[bats_eye.livejournal.com]

Possibly I give Cable and Deadpool more importance than Marvel do but it does seem like they don't understand why people like Cable, or at least why I like him.

The interesting thing about him as a character, to me anyway, has always been that how trustworthy and how competent he actually is is always in question. (Does he actually know anything about the future or does he just say he does to get people to follow him? Does he actually care about X-Force or are they just pawns to him? Is he content to stay at Providence or will he try for actual world domination like SHIELD fears? Is he actually Deadpool's friend or just another bastard trying to keep him under his thumb?)

Pretty much all of Nicieza's plots with him basically involve him very loudly proclaiming how trustworthy and capable he is, while the supporting cast (the six pack mostly) go around saying 'no, no don't trust him, don't ever trust him. he'll fuck up and he'll fuck your life up when he does' and you don't know who to believe.

That's the ambiguity writers always play with, a) can Cable pull off his latest plan? and b) do we actually want him to?

If his latest plan is to kill the avengers than the answers to both questions are clearly no. In which case interest is kind of over, already.

He's also, imo anyway, a very rare character in that he works better dramatically as the overdog than the underdog. Partly because you get the 'if he needs to be stopped, can anyone stop him?' subtext and partly because he's a character who almost always fails in all of his plans anyway. Who has pretty much lost or discarded everything he had, due to his own inability to ever walk away. In the same way that Spider-Man has to be outnumbered, so we can get the dramatic turnaround when he triumphs anyway, Cable has to be powerful so we get the drama of him still finding a way to lose.

Putting him as the plucky underdog doesn't really work for me. Ideally Cable vs the Avengers should be from the pov of an underpowered avenger like Daredevil or better yet an outside agent with connections to Cable like Wade or Domino, who suddenly find the big guns being hunted down and clearly outmatched and have to do decide if a) Cable can be stopped and b) Cable should be stopped. And the comic should try really hard to convince us that Cable is in the right, by having him convince other people to help him, in order to make it actually ambiguous, and most importantly Cable should have a lot of irritatingly smug dialogue in which he claims vast knowledge and competence and asks for complete trust but doesn't actually provide any reasons or evidence.

But yeah, I too have a really hard time buying Cable as just deciding to kill the avengers, not in the "oh he'd never kill them" because, you know, he'd kill his own gran if he felt he had to but in the "he would try talking first" thing. Cable likes talking to people. He thinks mind games and manipulation and convincing former enemies to support him is about as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. I literally can't think of a single bad guy in C & D who Cable didn't try and recruit and that includes Captain America who he very specifically and calmly threatened/bribed/blackmailed/seduced when he thought Cap might try and stop him.

But, the continued unexplained deaths and resurrections make me laugh regardless, so there is that.

[rallamajoop.livejournal.com]

Much agreed on pretty much your whole take on Cable here. :)

Pretty much all of Nicieza's plots with him basically involve him very loudly proclaiming how trustworthy and capable he is, while the supporting cast (the six pack mostly) go around saying 'no, no don't trust him, don't ever trust him. he'll fuck up and he'll fuck your life up when he does' and you don't know who to believe.

I think this is also a big part of why he often works better in a team book or with a large supporting cast than he does in a solo title. A lot of the character's best value comes when we don't have any idea what he's really planning, and that's a lot easier to use when he's not the sole protagonist.

I do think you're right that Marvel probably don't see the trustworthy/competence question as being key to the character, because off the top of my head I'm not sure I can think of any writer besides Nicieza who's ever done much with it. Most of the others seem to use him as a far more generic protagonist, give or take his weird background and communication issues. They certainly don't have him deliberately mislead everyone down to the audience, at any rate. Unless you think of any counter examples?

If his latest plan is to kill the avengers than the answers to both questions are clearly no. In which case interest is kind of over, already.

Yeah, I'd say you nailed it in one here. They might as well solicit it with "Tune in to find out exactly why and how he ever thought he could pull it off, and how he's going to fail!" You could do something moderately interesting with the execution, but at the conceptual level it has some glaring flaws. Heck, even the "It was all an elaborate distraction to give him the chance to draw out the real evil party!" option (which I am sure is exactly how it would have gone down in C&DP) is almost too obvious to be much of a twist.

He's also, imo anyway, a very rare character in that he works better dramatically as the overdog than the underdog. Partly because you get the 'if he needs to be stopped, can anyone stop him?' subtext and partly because he's a character who almost always fails in all of his plans anyway. Who has pretty much lost or discarded everything he had, due to his own inability to ever walk away.

And yet the fascinating part is that he never feels like a character defined by failure, if that makes sense.

Ideally Cable vs the Avengers should be from the pov of an underpowered avenger like Daredevil or better yet an outside agent with connections to Cable like Wade or Domino, who suddenly find the big guns being hunted down and clearly outmatched and have to do decide if a) Cable can be stopped and b) Cable should be stopped. And the comic should try really hard to convince us that Cable is in the right, by having him convince other people to help him, in order to make it actually ambiguous, and most importantly Cable should have a lot of irritatingly smug dialogue in which he claims vast knowledge and competence and asks for complete trust but doesn't actually provide any reasons or evidence.

Yes! So much of this is exactly like what I was envisaging for that hypothetical Cable-vs-some-OTHER-overpowered-team version of the idea - especially the outside agent perspective and the moral ambiguity. :3

(On the flip side of all that, one of those reviews I was reading made the very good point that based on Jeph Loeb's recent work, we're doing pretty well that Cable even has been given a clear, defined reason for going after the Avengers, rather than just churning out four issues of everyone fighting for no reason. Sometimes you have to be very careful who you license to use the 'it's meant to be ambiguous' excuse.)

[bats_eye.livejournal.com]

I think this is also a big part of why he often works better in a team book or with a large supporting cast than he does in a solo title. A lot of the character's best value comes when we don't have any idea what he's really planning, and that's a lot easier to use when he's not the sole protagonist.

Yep, arguably the weakest issue of C & DP, with regards to Cable anyway, is the one which he narrates. As hypocritical as this makes me given I've rped him from his own perspective for years and years, he's a better character when the story isn't told through his eyes.

I do think you're right that Marvel probably don't see the trustworthy/competence question as being key to the character, because off the top of my head I'm not sure I can think of any writer besides Nicieza who's ever done much with it.

Yeah the very early X-Force stuff plays that up all the time, especially once Stryfe and Rictor are introduced, but since then not really. Soldier X and the earlier arc set in Peru both dabbled with suggestions that Cable wasn't entirely to be trusted but, you're right, it's really only Nicieza who has put that front and centre recently.

And yet the fascinating part is that he never feels like a character defined by failure, if that makes sense.

I think it's because of how little he dwells on them. The 'I always look forward because there's too much blood on my back to think about the past' thing he talks about with Irene. If anything he's defined by his refusal to accept his failiures. He'll cheerfully admit that his previous eight thousand cunning plans all didn't work and still bet everything he has that the next one will. It's not his image among the general x-men famdon, but he's kinda pollyannaish in that way. For all the grim and gritty trimmings, by the time of C&Dp he's arguably one of the most optimistic, hopeful and idealistic characters Marvel have ever produced. He's Wily E Cable and 100% confident that he'll catch that Roadrunner eventually. Only in this case the roadrunner represents world peace.

(On the flip side of all that, one of those reviews I was reading made the very good point that based on Jeph Loeb's recent work, we're doing pretty well that Cable even has been given a clear, defined reason for going after the Avengers, rather than just churning out four issues of everyone fighting for no reason. Sometimes you have to be very careful who you license to use the 'it's meant to be ambiguous' excuse.)

Heh. Yep, it's Loeb. It could always be worse. And probably will.

Actually, I think the main reason I can't see Cable deciding to kill the Avengers is that he's smart enough to realise that without them, the world is basically screwed anyway. Is Hope supposed to single-handedly deal with the next few major alien invasions too?

I could be sold on that, I think. Because thats just arrogance. That, of course his girl can do all the avengers can do and more, he trained her didn't he. The comic has to do the legwork to make me buy it, mind. It needs to be brought up at least.

And, btw, I really liked you're latest fic, the post ressurection crotch kicking one. I'd much much rather you were writing these things.

[rallamajoop.livejournal.com]

Yep, arguably the weakest issue of C & DP, with regards to Cable anyway, is the one which he narrates.

There were a couple of those issues, weren't there? Mostly during the destruction of Providence, and given that the one you may be thinking of was obligatory tie-in material I'd say it had bigger hurdles to clear than a clunky narration scheme. I think there are cases where first person narration from a character like Cable can work, but you'd want to use it very sparingly.

Deadpool, now, he's on completely the opposite end of that scale.

Yeah the very early X-Force stuff plays that up all the time, especially once Stryfe and Rictor are introduced, but since then not really.

And pretty much all the early X-Force stuff was written by Nicieza too. I think that side of Cable got lost after we had most of his big mysteries explained and his titles passed on to different writers, and only reemerged when Nicieza was given the job of finding him a new direction. (You could maybe argue that the source of his blind faith in Hope is a more recent example, but the same goes for almost everyone in the X-books lately.)

I think it's because of how little he dwells on them. The 'I always look forward because there's too much blood on my back to think about the past' thing he talks about with Irene. If anything he's defined by his refusal to accept his failiures. He'll cheerfully admit that his previous eight thousand cunning plans all didn't work and still bet everything he has that the next one will.

Or to summarise, he doesn't angst about it. He doesn't deny his past failures either, but against the rest of the X-cast the lack of angst can be quite refreshing.

He's Wily E Cable and 100% confident that he'll catch that Roadrunner eventually. Only in this case the roadrunner represents world peace.

...I have got to find an excuse to have Deadpool say this sometime. XD

That, of course his girl can do all the avengers can do and more, he trained her didn't he.

Oh bloody hell, don't get me started on Hope again. :/

Or the thing where Cable spent his last 20+ issues running away from Bishop, and now he suddenly thinks he can take down ALL THE AVENGERS overnight.

And, btw, I really liked you're latest fic, the post ressurection crotch kicking one. I'd much much rather you were writing these things.

Thanks! ^_^ But I'd have to say if we do get a Cable/Deadpool reunion out of Marvel any time soon, there's no-one I'd trust to handle it better than the guy who's actually writing X-Force right now. He writes a wonderful Deadpool.

I always forget just how fragile the character limit on these things is

[rallamajoop.livejournal.com]

But yeah, I too have a really hard time buying Cable as just deciding to kill the avengers, not in the "oh he'd never kill them" because, you know, he'd kill his own gran if he felt he had to but in the "he would try talking first" thing.

Actually, I think the main reason I can't see Cable deciding to kill the Avengers is that he's smart enough to realise that without them, the world is basically screwed anyway. Is Hope supposed to single-handedly deal with the next few major alien invasions too? Explaining the upcoming danger to someone is just so much more efficient on so many levels.

But, the continued unexplained deaths and resurrections make me laugh regardless, so there is that.

Indeed there is. *g*

[maxi1234.livejournal.com]

I'm kinda hoping for it to turn out the TO just messed with his mind or something.

But I don't think Marvel will kill him again after this event. I mean, why bring him back for a story just to have him dead again by the end of it? I also think some Marvel editor said in an interview they have plans for Cable after X-Sanction… hopefully he's alive in them.

[rallamajoop.livejournal.com]

I mean, why bring him back for a story just to have him dead again by the end of it?

Well, it gives them a chance to give Jeph Loeb another writing job and sets stuff up for their next big crossover clash without upsetting the status quo so much that Hope has a living father figure again barely a month or two after seeing him die in the first place. I mean, by the same logic, why try and work up tension over the likelihood he's going to die again when we don't even know what he's doing alive in the first place?

Knowing Marvel, those later plans could just as easily mean he's got yet another resurrection scheduled. I mean, obviously it's easily possible he's going to survive somehow, but the mere fact they're teasing the possibility of him dying again so soon is pretty hilarious in it's own right.

It might sound strange coming from a Cable fan, but I actually feel like it's in his best interests to stay off the board a little longer yet. Gives his sacrifice more weight, and gives later writers more leeway to take him in a direction that isn't a total rehash of everything he's already been doing for the last few years straight.