One (hopefully) final Overture story post
Jan. 14th, 2008 06:13 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rallamajoopI’m having this rather horrifying revelation about Overture.
It’s taken a couple of days of being irritated at the game for having the nerve to exist at all and gradually hunting through the web for answers to all the really difficult questions about just what we were supposed to think was going on. However, if you can somehow put aside the fact this game is simply incapable of fitting into the canon we know, has graffitied over my favourite pairing and hardly even let my favourite characters interact on screen, then I’m stuck with this nasty little conclusion about the story.
I enjoyed it.
See, almost all the problems with Overture come from the fact it’s set in a poorly defined AU. AUs don’t have to be such a mess – they did a great job with the one from the Side Red/Side Black drama CDs. The big difference is that by the end of the CDs, we knew exactly when, how and even why the timelines had diverged. On the other hand, the best we can say about Overture is, “it sort of seems like it was probably supposed to diverge around GGX somewhere or something?” Except how that still doesn’t make any sense. Maybe there’s a way of fitting it into the continuity after GG1 with a lot of effort, but they haven’t told us how, and it’s a bit unfair to expect fandom to fill in a gap that big.
Making things worse, it’s a whole different style of story, so it doesn’t even feel much like it’s part of any world we know. The only way I can get it to work at all is to assume it’s set in a world that’s completely AU, and the only things it shares with the main timeline is some of the world history and a couple of characters (and lets just say it also helps an awful lot if I patch in one of my new set of crack Sol/Ky theories to make my inner yaoi fangirl stop whinging). But if you can get it far enough that you’re looking at it basically as a story in its own right, with only minimal connection to do with the main GG canon… then I’m stuck on this problem that I did actually enjoy the story.
There are three fantastic new characters, and a new villain who I wasn’t so impressed with, but who had some interesting stuff in her own backstory. The story was full of unexpected twists, but a lot of good stories are, and once you’ve got your head around what was going on, most of the pacing and development worked pretty well. There was some very interesting development to the world – a colony of sentient Gears, a lot of new information about the theory of magic, some tantalising hints about Justice’s backstory. Sol never entirely feels like the Sol we know thanks to that voice, but damn if it wasn’t fascinating seeing him actually doing the Frederick thing for once and talking science for so much of the game. Complicated as it was (so help me) I even liked all the magical technobabble they kept throwing around. And at the end, they did leave me at least generally curious about what would have happened next.
If they ever actually got to make a GG3, anyway, which doesn’t look likely with the sales figures I’ve seen for GG2 . According to VG Charts, Overture only sold 5000 copies in its first week, and has gradually crawled its way up to around 8000 since. I’m no expert, but for a game which sells for around $70 and built for a 7th gen console, I can’t imagine that’s even going to be close to covering their development costs, let alone turning a profit. For comparison, Accent Core (which wouldn’t have had a fraction of the cost to make) sold 33,000 copies in its first week in Japan, and was up to 45,000 by the time sales had dropped off; Slash sold over 75,000 total and XX nearly 160,000. Clearly ‘more new content and story’ = ‘more sales’, but ‘leaping completely out into uncharted territory’ = bad idea. There were supposed to be plans for an English version, but I wouldn’t be surprised if even that’s fallen through with the game doing so badly. A bunch of story mode videos on youtube might well be all we ever see of GG2 over here.
So, I’m not going to try to say everyone needs to give it another chance, because the fact remains that it is one hellish mess of continuity problems, and people can’t be expected to just ignore all that – it’s a pretty major flaw (and even then, it’s not going to be everyone’s kind of story). But at least it’s restored a little of my faith that when AC+ comes out, we’re not going to discover they’ve completely forgotten how to write out a coherent storyline and have turned even our main canon into canon soup.
While I’m here, you know what? I can come up with a plausible AU timeline which makes the discrepancies from Overture make sense. It just doesn’t work the way they seem to want us to think.
The idea is that the timelines diverge before the war ends. Sol never steals the Fuuenken and never leaves the Order. Somewhere between that and the end of the war, Ky finds out about his Gear nature and past, and however the detail might work, that leads to them settling their differences. Sol’s still looking for That Man after the war though, so they go their separate ways, just on much better terms than they would have otherwise.
Illyuria could be a kingdom founded after the war ended. Ky would be an obvious candidate for king – he’s the heroic commander who saved the world and he’s a natural leader. Since he’s one of very few who knows enough about Sol’s past to realise Gears aren’t always evil, it’d make perfect sense that he’d get involved when he heard maybe-Dizzy had shown up and offer to keep her existence secret by hiding her in Illyuria. (There’s not so much I can do with the part with Ky falling for her except shrug, shake my head and make sure the AU stamp on this world is so big it’s visible from space. But aside from that, it could all fit.)
Trouble is, that’s not what they want us to think happened. In attempt to give GG2 some legitimacy, they’ve told us it’s a direct sequel to GG1 and doesn’t become AU until around GGX. All that despite the fact there’s nothing I’ve seen story-wise to connect GG2 to anything that actually happens in GG1, and a whole lot that contradicts. I have a feeling they went and forgot that GG1 had a story at all.
It’s a shame though. Gameplay problems aside (which I’m not in a position to comment on since I haven't actually played it), there’s really not that much they would’ve had to change about Overture to fix most of what turned me and so much of fandom against it.
It’s taken a couple of days of being irritated at the game for having the nerve to exist at all and gradually hunting through the web for answers to all the really difficult questions about just what we were supposed to think was going on. However, if you can somehow put aside the fact this game is simply incapable of fitting into the canon we know, has graffitied over my favourite pairing and hardly even let my favourite characters interact on screen, then I’m stuck with this nasty little conclusion about the story.
I enjoyed it.
See, almost all the problems with Overture come from the fact it’s set in a poorly defined AU. AUs don’t have to be such a mess – they did a great job with the one from the Side Red/Side Black drama CDs. The big difference is that by the end of the CDs, we knew exactly when, how and even why the timelines had diverged. On the other hand, the best we can say about Overture is, “it sort of seems like it was probably supposed to diverge around GGX somewhere or something?” Except how that still doesn’t make any sense. Maybe there’s a way of fitting it into the continuity after GG1 with a lot of effort, but they haven’t told us how, and it’s a bit unfair to expect fandom to fill in a gap that big.
Making things worse, it’s a whole different style of story, so it doesn’t even feel much like it’s part of any world we know. The only way I can get it to work at all is to assume it’s set in a world that’s completely AU, and the only things it shares with the main timeline is some of the world history and a couple of characters (and lets just say it also helps an awful lot if I patch in one of my new set of crack Sol/Ky theories to make my inner yaoi fangirl stop whinging). But if you can get it far enough that you’re looking at it basically as a story in its own right, with only minimal connection to do with the main GG canon… then I’m stuck on this problem that I did actually enjoy the story.
There are three fantastic new characters, and a new villain who I wasn’t so impressed with, but who had some interesting stuff in her own backstory. The story was full of unexpected twists, but a lot of good stories are, and once you’ve got your head around what was going on, most of the pacing and development worked pretty well. There was some very interesting development to the world – a colony of sentient Gears, a lot of new information about the theory of magic, some tantalising hints about Justice’s backstory. Sol never entirely feels like the Sol we know thanks to that voice, but damn if it wasn’t fascinating seeing him actually doing the Frederick thing for once and talking science for so much of the game. Complicated as it was (so help me) I even liked all the magical technobabble they kept throwing around. And at the end, they did leave me at least generally curious about what would have happened next.
If they ever actually got to make a GG3, anyway, which doesn’t look likely with the sales figures I’ve seen for GG2 . According to VG Charts, Overture only sold 5000 copies in its first week, and has gradually crawled its way up to around 8000 since. I’m no expert, but for a game which sells for around $70 and built for a 7th gen console, I can’t imagine that’s even going to be close to covering their development costs, let alone turning a profit. For comparison, Accent Core (which wouldn’t have had a fraction of the cost to make) sold 33,000 copies in its first week in Japan, and was up to 45,000 by the time sales had dropped off; Slash sold over 75,000 total and XX nearly 160,000. Clearly ‘more new content and story’ = ‘more sales’, but ‘leaping completely out into uncharted territory’ = bad idea. There were supposed to be plans for an English version, but I wouldn’t be surprised if even that’s fallen through with the game doing so badly. A bunch of story mode videos on youtube might well be all we ever see of GG2 over here.
So, I’m not going to try to say everyone needs to give it another chance, because the fact remains that it is one hellish mess of continuity problems, and people can’t be expected to just ignore all that – it’s a pretty major flaw (and even then, it’s not going to be everyone’s kind of story). But at least it’s restored a little of my faith that when AC+ comes out, we’re not going to discover they’ve completely forgotten how to write out a coherent storyline and have turned even our main canon into canon soup.
While I’m here, you know what? I can come up with a plausible AU timeline which makes the discrepancies from Overture make sense. It just doesn’t work the way they seem to want us to think.
The idea is that the timelines diverge before the war ends. Sol never steals the Fuuenken and never leaves the Order. Somewhere between that and the end of the war, Ky finds out about his Gear nature and past, and however the detail might work, that leads to them settling their differences. Sol’s still looking for That Man after the war though, so they go their separate ways, just on much better terms than they would have otherwise.
Illyuria could be a kingdom founded after the war ended. Ky would be an obvious candidate for king – he’s the heroic commander who saved the world and he’s a natural leader. Since he’s one of very few who knows enough about Sol’s past to realise Gears aren’t always evil, it’d make perfect sense that he’d get involved when he heard maybe-Dizzy had shown up and offer to keep her existence secret by hiding her in Illyuria. (There’s not so much I can do with the part with Ky falling for her except shrug, shake my head and make sure the AU stamp on this world is so big it’s visible from space. But aside from that, it could all fit.)
Trouble is, that’s not what they want us to think happened. In attempt to give GG2 some legitimacy, they’ve told us it’s a direct sequel to GG1 and doesn’t become AU until around GGX. All that despite the fact there’s nothing I’ve seen story-wise to connect GG2 to anything that actually happens in GG1, and a whole lot that contradicts. I have a feeling they went and forgot that GG1 had a story at all.
It’s a shame though. Gameplay problems aside (which I’m not in a position to comment on since I haven't actually played it), there’s really not that much they would’ve had to change about Overture to fix most of what turned me and so much of fandom against it.
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no subject
Date: 2008-01-15 02:45 pm (UTC)And I agree that the GG2 story would have worked about a billion times better if they had declared when and how the story diverges from canon, and given some more attention to certain details
*cough*liketheKy/maybe-Dizzything*cough*. Then it wouldn't have smacked the fandom in its collective forehead like a several thousand-ton tanker ship at full speed. And that would have lead to much more positive sales figures.Another thing is that in addition to being a poorly explained AU (leaving out on the actual AU story being good and enjoyable), it is also a completely new attempt at gameplay. GG has always been a traditional 2D fighter, even after PS2 and Co made it more than possible to give it an überpretty 3D look, and that was what attracted the fans to it. Making them swallow the change in gameplay in addition to the confusing divergence problem was... a poor decision on Ishiwatari's part, methinks.
Which is sad, because I really think GG2 could've been top if they'd just fixed those problems.
(And on that note, I DO so love your theories. And I say we should stick the Pants on a Stick version because it makes sense and is cute and I adore the concept of their verbal lovebiting. XD)
no subject
Date: 2008-01-15 02:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-15 03:19 pm (UTC)Putting it on the 360 seems to have really backfired for them too. I think I can sort of see what they were going for, it just fell down in execution so miserably.
I have to admit part of me isn't sure whether she's glad the whole plot made no sense because at least that makes it easier to dismiss the Ky/maybe-Dizzy thing as being as non-sensical as the rest of it. ^^; But that's probably a moot point.
Considering fans' well known ability to argue about everything, I'm amazed just how much everyone I've spoken to seems to agree on all the points where Overture went wrong. Just makes it so much sadder the producers didn't see it all coming. But if I have to be realistic, I'm not sure even fixing the plot issues would have saved their sales. Gameplay was the real thing they needed to sell people, and they seem to have fallen down on that side too.
(And on that note, I DO so love your theories. And I say we should stick the Pants on a Stick version because it makes sense and is cute and I adore the concept of their verbal lovebiting. XD)
They're the only way I cope!Pants on a Stick would be a hard act to follow. *g* Though the main thing all those other ideas have going for them is I could easily come up with a plot to go with whatever, but I'm not sure yet where else I could take the Pants-verse that would live up to the beginning. <.< I'm open to suggestions though.no subject
Date: 2008-01-15 07:40 pm (UTC)I have to admit part of me isn't sure whether she's glad the whole plot made no sense because at least that makes it easier to dismiss the Ky/maybe-Dizzy thing as being as non-sensical as the rest of it. ^^; But that's probably a moot point.
And on the pairing thing... I like it better when there are no canon pairings. It takes a LOT of effort to do them well - Drag-on Dragoon (aka Drakengard) and Shadow Hearts being two examples of well-done, the whole FF-series after FFVII being an example of ranging from "meh" to "WTF were they smoking???". One reason for FFVII's continued popularity is that it has absolutely no canon pairings beyond Barret&hiswife and Mr&Mrs Strife making a little baby Cloud once upon a time. It gives people room to play and interpret canon however they want.
And that's what Guilty Gear fandom was doing for all those years, too. Nothing was definite, aside from Venom's pretty obvious declarations, and fans got to play with it. The het fans were happy with their het, and the yaoi fans were happy to slash Sol/Ky or whatever floated their boat. Suddenly throwing a canon pairing in there with no lead-up and no explanation is a major disservice to the fandom at large. Not only does it make the half that ships another pairing go "WTF", it also takes the fun of guessing - "Did they, didn't they? Are they, aren't they?" - out of it.
Just makes it so much sadder the producers didn't see it all coming.
Yeah, it's kind of funny, in a sad way, how we're all agreeing on this stuff. I'm guessing Ishiwatari was too enamored with his new ability to render every male ass in hyperrealistic detail to think about these things. XD
But if I have to be realistic, I'm not sure even fixing the plot issues would have saved their sales.
There are instances, though, where a good story saves a gameplay transition. I'll take FFXII as an example even though it's a bit of a strange comparison--I remember when they first announced how the battle system was going to be completely overhauled and changed, everyone was "WTF?!". But then they went all-out and were all, "But see what else we're giving you! We're giving you PLOT. We're giving you POLITICAL INTRIGUE. We're giving you SIDEQUESTS. We're giving you SHINY." I think that made the transition a lot easier for many fans.
And while I'm not suggesting that GG should walk down the RPG path, sweet mother of pearl, no, I'm suggesting they could've made up for it by delivering a solid story, and maybe easing the fans into the concept. Heck, they could've given out free demos or something.
They're the only way I cope!
XDDD I've taken to gritting my teeth when it comes to such half-assed relationship introductions. I love Sin and Izuna, so I wanna keep them, and therefore I've set my mind to ignore the Ky/maybe-Dizzy thing even if they marry them - though I hope to the gods that they won't - and happily slash my way through the GG landscape. In more ways than one. XD
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 02:07 am (UTC)It gives people room to play and interpret canon however they want.
By which you mean "argue infinitely about Aeris versus Tifa," right? But yeah - that definitely worked in their favour in the long run.
If we're listing, we've actually got a pretty good spectrum of pairing stuff other than Venom - there's Millia's own past thing for Zato, something probably happening with Anji and Baiken, May's crush on Johnny, Slayer and Sharon being happily married in the background, Axl's girlfriend lurking somewhere off screen... As you say, nothing that's really in your face or definite though. But with the Ky/what's-her-name thing... I'm not even sure whether that *counts* as a pairing when we don't even know who she is - it's more like the Axl/Megumi thing where we're told it's important but it stays off screen. Her only role is to be Sin's mother and something to be fought for/over hell, she kinda even reminds me of Kairi's role in KH taken to some weird extreme.
I can imagine a romance between Ky and someone Dizzy-like would be very sweet and all but... erg, basically pretty dull, and certainly not fitting with a GG story. Maybe they were counting on a mostly male fanbase not caring who got paired with who, but it's not much fun finding out a major character has been married off to a plot device while you weren't watching.
There are instances, though, where a good story saves a gameplay transition. I'll take FFXII as an example even though it's a bit of a strange comparison
There are, but the difference is that RPGs are all about playing through a story - the battle system's just how you get there. Whereas, even if I'm in GG for the plot, at the end of the day fighting games (Overture-style odd cases included) are about competitive gameplay and half their target audience treats the story as just a nice bonus feature. A better story could have helped, but I don't think it'd make enough difference to save their sales. (On which note, I tried playing FFXII the other week and the story put me to sleep within the first half hour. I guess political intrigue and endless side quests just aren't my thing. ^^; They definitely made good money out of it, but going through the reviews, I don't think any game in the FF series has ever polarised the fandom so much.)
They did give out free demos - there was one for download on XBOX Live, and I got the impression it was getting lots of attention when it first came out (it was well up on the list of top weekly downloads, anyway). Seems it just didn't impress players enough to make them shell out money for the full game.
I love Sin and Izuna, so I wanna keep them
Oh, absolutely. ^_^ Shame they were wasted on a game like that, but Ishiwatari hasn't lost his touch with character design. Which is why - if we're off in crazy AU territory anyway - I feel perfectly justified about picking and choosing which bits of the game I want to keep.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 11:22 am (UTC)To tell the truth, I don't partake in those ridiculous fights of "MY PAIRING IS BETTER THAN YOURS IT'S MORE CANON!!11eleventy". I'm sure there are those rabid people hiding in the GG fandom, too, but again, I usually steer clear of these things.
I can really only go with my experience of this issue, and what I usually do when I'm not presented with canon pairings: a) I tend to get into/acknowledge/be interested in more pairings than I usually would be, and b) I don't have to headdesk myself through the game because of how awkward and nonsensical a relationship is built. No canon relationships = hours of fun ficcing and a much smaller dent in my forehead. XDDD
And yeah, you just phrased my point of the GG pairings better than I could. They stay off-screen mostly, and that's what makes them likeable (heck, I ship Slayer/Sharon to pieces XD).
hell, she kinda even reminds me of Kairi's role in KH taken to some weird extreme.
You know, that's a damn good comparison. I hated that concept in KH because it was such a cliché device saved only by the fact that Riku was kinda maybe sorta not doing it because of Kairi (though how much slash potential you want to read into that is an individual choice). It literally was the only thing that kept me from developing a nervous tic everytime anyone mentioned Kairi's name... she's fine and all, if an overly flat character, but the clichéd "fighting for/over/about the girl" makes me gag.
I can imagine a romance between Ky and someone Dizzy-like would be very sweet and all but... erg, basically pretty dull
OH THANK YOU. It's exactly what bothers me with most canon pairings, especially het couples. That, and such sweetness in pairings all too often has the tendency to devolve into "sweet lovey-dovey adorable pookie-bear wuuuv" (whether that be in the fans' minds or--more often--in canon itself), and that makes me lose interest faster than anything else. You can't do anything with it. You can't take it anywhere, it doesn't develop, it's only ever roses and sunshine.
If we take a pairing like Sol/Ky, though, there can be anything from verbal sparring to hating each other to bits to watching each other's backs to "Groar let's fight I'm craving a good ass-whooping" or to sitting next to each other discussing stuff and sporadically kicking each other in the shins as some weird way of showing affection. And several other possibilities I haven't managed to fit into this list. In other words? It's interesting because I get to imagine the possibilities.
Whereas, even if I'm in GG for the plot, at the end of the day fighting games (Overture-style odd cases included) are about competitive gameplay and half their target audience treats the story as just a nice bonus feature.
Of course, you're right about that. And about FFXII? I can only promise that it gets better once the story gains a little momentum.
They did give out free demos
Oh, my bad, I didn't know. But then again, I couldn't have downloaded that even if I had wanted to--not owning an Xbox (especially at that price) foiled my plans before they were ever born. DX
Shame they were wasted on a game like that, but Ishiwatari hasn't lost his touch with character design.
Definitely. And his impossible anatomy fetish has lessened a bit, even though I'm still wincing when I look at the pose Sin is pulling with his arm. XD;;;;
And LOL, about Izuna... did you know that he looks almost EXACTLY like a character from a popular BL game? I made a post about it here, a while back. While I didn't get the best screenshot of the other character, it's hilarious how much they resemble each other, and they even share certain mannerisms. It really makes me wonder what Ishiwatari is doing in his freetime. XDDD
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 05:04 pm (UTC)...I still do want to play it though. Just 'cause.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-16 11:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 01:49 am (UTC)Oh, didn't mean to imply you did (dude, me neither, I steer as clear as possible) - just that's my general impression of where leaving the official pairings ambiguous has gotten them with FFVII. XD The Aeris vs Tifa thing is one of those ship wars that never wants to die.
Borderline-canon relationships do tend to be the best value. Lots of material for fanfic writers to work with, but it's not all so well defined that there's no room to speculate.
They stay off-screen mostly, and that's what makes them likeable (heck, I ship Slayer/Sharon to pieces XD).
They are one terrifyingly well matched couple, aren't they? But of course, you can do that (leave all the relationship detail off screen) with a mysterious side character like Slayer. It doesn't really work so well with a main character like Ky.
You can't do anything with it. You can't take it anywhere, it doesn't develop, it's only ever roses and sunshine.
And y'know, I suspect that sealing her up out of sight and forcing everyone else to run around trying to save her is about the best plot you can get from a relationship like that. -_- They'd be all very nice for, oh, an FF-style movie ballroom/lake sequence or something, but that's really not the kind of mindless sap I want to see in my Guilty Gear, kthx.
I am *all* for pairings between characters who can argue constantly and/or beat the snot out of each other and still be madly in love at the end of the day. And hell - I think half the unrecognised appeal of most slash pairings is that they're on the far side of canon, so there's so much more room to interpret them in different ways. =3
even though I'm still wincing when I look at the pose Sin is pulling with his arm. XD;;;;
Hah, I know - my artist sister can barely glance at that picture without wanting to scream at it. I have a Sin poster thanks to some friends who got to go to the TGS, but I'm lucky enough that it's a close up and they cut the arm out of the picture. XD
And LOL, about Izuna... did you know that he looks almost EXACTLY like a character from a popular BL game?
XD It really *does* make you wonder, doesn't it? Especially when we know Ishiwatari takes 'inspiration' for some of his characters from all over the place. *g*
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 11:26 am (UTC)Ahh, I guess I phrased something wrong again... I meant to say that stuff usually goes right over my head, because... well, my playground is the yaoi scene, and even there, I'm at the best indifferent to fanon and at worst completely oblivious to it. Because FFVII's fanon is... ugh. Don't get me started. >__>
It doesn't really work so well with a main character like Ky.
You're right, it doesn't. Which is why I'm so baffled they chose to make a love relationship between him and a mysterious female character one of the focal points, and then not reveal anything of importance. And it's kind of funny how the writer in me is throwing a fit about this oversight, and the yaoi fan in me is all, "Wheee ignore ignore ignore SIN ALREADY HAS A MOMMY." Who beats him up on a regular basis as a sign of affection. XD
They'd be all very nice for, oh, an FF-style movie ballroom/lake sequence or something
ARGGGGHHHH NOOOOOO. *HEADSPLODEY*
...Seriously, those scenes? Almost broke my brain. They were so... ugh. Full of melodrama and sap and more sap and wank and... gah. DO NOT WANT. Especially not in my Guilty Gear.
I am *all* for pairings between characters who can argue constantly and/or beat the snot out of each other and still be madly in love at the end of the day.
Oh gods, yes. Same here. There's just something irresistibly appealing about the concept that I can't explain. I guess part of it comes from my own dislike of the stereotypical portrayal of love relationships - it's always got to be sappy, and if there is not at least half a billion love declarations and cutsey pet names, then it's not twu wub.
Ky only uses pet names for Sol if you want to call French expletives a pet name. And for heaven's sake, if I read "Je t'aime" one more time, complete with erroneous accent placement, someone is going to be electrocuted.
Hah, I know - my artist sister can barely glance at that picture without wanting to scream at it.
The crazy thing is that Ishiwatari makes it work despite that. XD And gods know I spend an illegal amount of time ogling Sin. He is pretty. His pants are pretty. More pretty men should wear Sin's pants. *cough*
It really *does* make you wonder, doesn't it?
It definitely does. *nods* I'm far gone enough to seriously consider pulling a crossover where Izuna meets Bardo, just for the sheer fun of it. I still want to know if Izuna has a tail. >__>
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 12:06 pm (UTC)I'm still going with the theory that they couldn't show anything else that wouldn't have turned into boring sap (and I seriously wonder whether they ever planned to reveal her if the Overture series continued). They did work it into the plot fairly well under the circumstances, just when you try to connect it to anything else we ever knew about the characters it falls flat on its face.
And it's kind of funny how the writer in me is throwing a fit about this oversight, and the yaoi fan in me is all, "Wheee ignore ignore ignore SIN ALREADY HAS A MOMMY." Who beats him up on a regular basis as a sign of affection. XD
I know what you mean. >.> Sad thing is, I probably would've been willing to forgive Overture a hell of a lot of its other faults if it wasn't for that one detail - as it is, they're getting both barrels. Don't get me started on the corners of fandom going "HAHA take that yaoi fans you were wrong all along!" and completely missing the point that even if you hate yaoi it still didn't make any kind of sense! Bet they wouldn't have been as happy if, say, I-no had renounced her evil ways, taken to wearing Victorian-style neck-to-ankle dresses and married Axl or something, but it would've made about as much sense.
Ky only uses pet names for Sol if you want to call French expletives a pet name. And for heaven's sake, if I read "Je t'aime" one more time, complete with erroneous accent placement, someone is going to be electrocuted.
Uh, even I don't think I've run into anything that bad (or if I did I ran away again very fast). And how can people even play/read the series with a Sol/Ky perspective at all and not realise how fixated Ky is on Sol's real name, huh? o_O French expletives though - I could work with that. XD
...Seriously, those scenes? Almost broke my brain. They were so... ugh. Full of melodrama and sap and more sap and wank and... gah. DO NOT WANT. Especially not in my Guilty Gear.
I actually didn't mind them too much in their original context (not a major selling point for me, but eh, cute enough *shrug*) - but I *expect* that stuff from an FF game. It'd be *way* out of place in GG.
The crazy thing is that Ishiwatari makes it work despite that. XD And gods know I spend an illegal amount of time ogling Sin. He is pretty. His pants are pretty. More pretty men should wear Sin's pants. *cough*
Make the art pretty enough, and you can get away with a *lot* of anatomical crap (see also: FF). A friend of mine is cosplaying Sin later this year. *has caught your cough* I may have been more please by this news than I should have been. >.>
I still want to know if Izuna has a tail. >__>
Probably nine of them, going by the nine-tailed fox avatar in his Master Ghost. *g*
Oh hey, you're actually online before I was supposed to be in bed for once. XD
no subject
Date: 2008-01-17 03:10 pm (UTC)Yeah, you're right about that. It's just unfortunate that it doesn't work in the whole context of the game series. If they would only clearly say "this is an AU which diverges from main canon at point Y, connect the dots from there, fandom", I could stop boggling about most of it.
Don't get me started on the corners of fandom going "HAHA take that yaoi fans you were wrong all along!"
Consider me in agreement once more. *claps* Also, this is such an infantile and stupid way to react to anything. It's about as intellectual and tolerant as a kindergartener going "Your mommy stinks." I will never understand why fandom can't just leave each other in peace. Why does one pairing/genre have to be superior to all others? I mean, I play and write because it's fun, not because I want to prove/disprove something or have it proven/disproven to me.
And on that note, it's pretty interesting, in a sad way, how such a plot point is immediately taken up to disprove any and all relations between the characters. I mean, even if you don't fancy the idea that Sol and Ky are boinking like there's no tomorrow, there is plenty of evidence (both in X-verse and our newly hatched monstrous AU chicken) to suggest that their relationship, whatever it may be, is pretty damn special. But apparently, just because Ky has now gotten a special lady, that is all invalid because it could hint at teh gayyyy and that is icky. Or something like that. *rolls eyes*
Uh, even I don't think I've run into anything that bad (or if I did I ran away again very fast).
Then you were luckier than me. DX If you feel like you want to rape your brain, the examples can more or less all be found on FF.net.
He certainly is fixated, isn't he? 8D I don't get why people have to resort to silly pet names anyway... a person's real name, spoken with feeling (whatever that feeling may be) and/or intimacy, is a much more potent instrument to convey something.
Heh, the French expletives thing was actually born out of this use of fanbrat!French in fanfiction. For every time I read "mon trésor" or something to that effect, I began to substitute or make up an obscure French insult in my head, and suddenly the world felt like a brighter place again. Plus, I amuse myself with the concept that Sol would try to look those up in a dictionary and then be pissed when he can't find out what Ky just called him. Not that I'd write it, but hey... coping mechanisms. XD
It'd be *way* out of place in GG.
Now you have me contemplating Sol in a ballroom. Which is actually a fairly hilarious mental image. Social butterfly, this man is not. XDDDD
A friend of mine is cosplaying Sin later this year.
Is there any way to get pictures of that? >_____>
Probably nine of them, going by the nine-tailed fox avatar in his Master Ghost. *g*
Oh gods, yeah. Now where is that picture of chibi-Sin napping in a bunch of floofy fox tails? ...Yes, I am an odd specimen of humanity and consider this idea the pinnacle of cuteness.
Oh hey, you're actually online before I was supposed to be in bed for once. XD
I apologize. We do seem to have this schedule where you go to bed once I get up/get back from class and vice versa. But now it's the weekend, so I'm much more flexible and can stay up longer/don't have to go to class. So, if you wanna talk, I'm all free. I'm never sure if I should poke you, because I don't wanna be annoying. Feel free to tell me if I am. >___>
no subject
Date: 2008-01-18 09:58 am (UTC)It's probably a bit of a moot point though, when the plot and the slashy subtext were *both* victims of the fact that nothing we've ever been presented with before suggested Ky was going to settle down with the official equivalent of a Mary Sue. And honestly, I wouldn't *want* to see him settle down with Sol in canon either because I can't imagine how it would contribute to the plot. Happy with my fic versions, thx. (If only there were more of them)
Also, this is such an infantile and stupid way to react to anything....I will never understand why fandom can't just leave each other in peace.
Meh, well, one of the less endearing features of GG fandom is that it's largely comprised of fighting game fanboys, so 'infantile and stupid' is right on the mark (though lord knows they're not the only culprits). What I love is seeing the same ones complain loudly about how horribly gay GG is one minute, then just as loudly deny the fangirls have any reason to see anything gay in it the next. Heteronormativity is a scary thing. And then there're the ones who were in such a rush to telling everyone how 'gay' the Overture cover was that they didn't even notice that one of the characters who looked like they were about to kiss on it was female. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
But apparently, just because Ky has now gotten a special lady, that is all invalid because it could hint at teh gayyyy and that is icky. Or something like that. *rolls eyes*
If 'gay' is such a hard concept for these people, I guess they've got no hope with 'bisexual'...
...actually, how about a new theory? The only difference between the GGX universe and the GG2 universe is that Sol and Ky are gay in GGX and straight in GG2. And see, it explains the rest of the problems too! No poorly repressed UST = no fighting! MWAHAHAH!
Is there any way to get pictures of that? >_____>
When it happens, *many* photos will be taken, do not worry. *g* We should have a Sol, a Ky and a Valentine too, if all goes to plan.
Plus, I amuse myself with the concept that Sol would try to look those up in a dictionary and then be pissed when he can't find out what Ky just called him. Not that I'd write it, but hey... coping mechanisms. XD
Or on the other hand, I could picture Sol considering it an achievement if he made Ky swear at him in any language, possibly even enjoy wondering just how profane he was getting. I doubt there's much Ky could call him that would actually bother him. XD
Now where is that picture of chibi-Sin napping in a bunch of floofy fox tails?
Wasn't that one up at Inu ga Yukuefumei (http://inu.rossa.cc/) a while back? Sounds familiar.
I apologize. We do seem to have this schedule where you go to bed once I get up/get back from class and vice versa. But now it's the weekend, so I'm much more flexible and can stay up longer/don't have to go to class. So, if you wanna talk, I'm all free. I'm never sure if I should poke you, because I don't wanna be annoying. Feel free to tell me if I am. >___>
Timezones are no-one's friend, I tell ya. This weekend's not the best for me, since I'm going to be at a con for a fair bit of it, but I'll see how it goes. And don't worry too much about bothering me - if I'm online at all, I'm probably expecting people messaging me, and if I'm busy, I'll just say so.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-19 01:05 am (UTC)Heh, I know what I'd chose because I'm shallow and the game is not mine and I'm yaoi-deprived. >_______> In one of my own stories, I'd never sacrifice coherence to something like this, but Overture made me go into Sol/Ky withdrawal. So I'd have to fix that first of all.
I wouldn't *want* to see him settle down with Sol in canon either because I can't imagine how it would contribute to the plot.
Agreed. I mean, it would be cute as a nonsensical little humor ficlet, but in the game? No way.
Heteronormativity is a scary thing.
So very much agreed. Which is why I'm kinda not happy with Ishiwatari about Overture, too. It's less the "THEY DEPRIVED ME OF MY FAVORITE PAIRING" and more the fact that he felt compelled to suddenly take out all subtext and make it appear like Ky was absolutely painfully straight and has been so all along that just... made me a little sad. That he, of all people, should conform to the heteronormativity wave everyone and their mom is riding on the video game sector is just... I'm not sure how to feel about that, after he's deliberately kept the ambiguity in GG for years.
And of course, the fandom reactions are downright hysterical. I mean, Valentine does look kinda boyish from neck up, but yeah. XDDDDD
I find it strange that guys, especially, get so worked up about homosexuality. I mean, there are homophobic girls, too, but guys usually have the most violent reactions. On the one hand, they call anything that is not a studly demonstration of maleness or heterosexuality "gay". On the other hand, they immediately turn around and assure their surroundings that THERE IS NO GAY and they ARE NOT GAY FOR STATING THAT THERE IS GAY. Or something. I mean, where does this inherent fear of anything other than heterosexuality come from? Is a heterosexual male's security in his identity so frail that he constantly needs to affirm it in every way? It makes me wonder.
If 'gay' is such a hard concept for these people, I guess they've got no hope with 'bisexual'...
Didn't you know? Bisexuality is a myth. A MYTH. DO NOT SPEAK OF IT. XDDDDD
...actually, how about a new theory?
This theory makes my fangirl heart weep. WEEP. T___T
When it happens, *many* photos will be taken, do not worry. *g*
Awesome. 8D
I doubt there's much Ky could call him that would actually bother him. XD
Also possible. And the question of what's actually bothering Sol is a mystery for the ages. What DOES get under his skin about Ky? Because I think there is something.
Sounds familiar.
It does, doesn't it. *digs*
And don't worry too much about bothering me - if I'm online at all, I'm probably expecting people messaging me, and if I'm busy, I'll just say so.
Okay. I'll find a way around the timezones sooner or later. Maybe next weekend, then, after most of my finales are over.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-19 10:36 am (UTC)And I can't say I'd blame you. ^^; (Quite apart from anything else, that angle would have been pretty easy to fix, whereas fixing up the rest of Overture's plot holes might well be impossible.)
I've seriously got no idea whether Ishiwatari thought he'd improve the game's sales by wiping the gay subtext or whether he somehow decided it was necessary to the story, it's all just so completely nonsensical from start to finish. It does suck on so many levels though. I mean, hell, it's not like we're campaigning for gay rights by enjoying our slash or anything, but seeing them throw away this major (even if technically subtextual) aspect of the relationship between the two main characters and then seeing half the fandom cheer hurts. And they've done it in a way that's so confusing I don't even know what to make of it. :/
It's like... some of the over-the-top female fanservice in GG really isn't a selling point for me, but it's so much part of the game that if they ever released an installment which was fanservice free, I'd feel a bit gipped, y'know? It wouldn't be the same series without it. But clearly a lot of the male portion of GG fandom doesn't see it that way if *my* fanservice goes missing. It's a bit depressing to see people celebrating the game changing when you liked it the way it was.
I mean, where does this inherent fear of anything other than heterosexuality come from? Is a heterosexual male's security in his identity so frail that he constantly needs to affirm it in every way? It makes me wonder.
I'm probably getting a bit far into Serious Business subjects here, but I've seen it pointed out before that there's this thing in our society where guys are set up so they pretty much have to spend their whole lives proving their heterosexuality. Sadly, I think it all comes back to the warped idea that male > female, because it's all fine if a girl wants to act a bit boyish (she's only being *better* than female, see?), but if a guy starts acting remotely feminine, that's not on. Blame it on society.
On the one hand, they call anything that is not a studly demonstration of maleness or heterosexuality "gay". On the other hand, they immediately turn around and assure their surroundings that THERE IS NO GAY and they ARE NOT GAY FOR STATING THAT THERE IS GAY.
XD Strangely beautiful, isn't it? And on the upside, at least that means we can still get a good laugh out of them.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-19 10:43 am (UTC)What DOES get under his skin about Ky? Because I think there is something.
I don't think that one's a huge mystery, going by what canon has to say on the subject. Ky (at least when Sol first met him) was devoutly religious, really believed in his superiors and following the rules and saw the world in black and white - whereas Sol was old and jaded and knew damn well how much of that was garbage. Ky's hero complex really gets to him in drama CDs, and add in the fact he's having to put up with a sixteen year old giving him orders, who'll never give up on the idea he could beat Sol someday despite being so completely outclassed and who everyone else treats like the last hope of humanity in a hundred year war against an enemy Sol was partially responsible for creating... Mmm, lots of lovely tension in there.
But it goes even further, because even if Sol wants to write Ky off as some naive little kid, he can't. They never could have won the war without him (see: Side Black for definitive evidence). And even though Ky has no idea about Sol's past and could never beat him, there are all these great little moments in the series that prove knows Sol like no-one else does. He can pick which bounties Sol's turned in from the official lists even though he goes under 'anonymous', he once realises Sol's shown up completely out of the blue based on only the fact something huge just hit the airship he was in, and when he needs information from Sol in the manga, he guesses exactly where Sol will be and even manages to organise events to give him maybe the closest he's ever had to a victory against Sol in combat. No wonder he gets under Sol's skin.
...uh, so I may have gotten a little carried away there, huh? >.> What can I say, I'm rather fond of this topic.
This theory makes my fangirl heart weep. WEEP. T___T
Um, try reading it as proof that Sol/Ky is canon in GGX? Like the AU from Side Black was all 'This is what would have happened if Ky died during the war! Aren't we lucky this didn't happen?' and so the point of Overture is 'This is what would have happened if Ky was straight! Aren't we lucky it's all so completely stupid and contradictory we can ignore it?' It made sense in my head, really. >.>
after most of my finales are over
Ah, one of those things I don't miss from uni. Best of luck with those.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-19 12:57 pm (UTC)Agreed on both points. And I don't even know why they're cheering. Are either Sol or Ky any more or any less because of who they bang in their spare time? I think that's frankly ridiculous. I mean, suppose for a moment that the opposite had happened and Ishiwatari had declared both of them gay for each other. I can just imagine the fanboys screaming absolute outrage. *eyeroll*
It's like... some of the over-the-top female fanservice in GG really isn't a selling point for me, but it's so much part of the game that if they ever released an installment which was fanservice free, I'd feel a bit gipped, y'know?
Agreed once again. I mean, it's just a part of it, and one thing I always liked about GG was that it gives both segments of the gamer population something to fantasize about. The guys can have their boobies and the girls can go on about sexy abs and tight male asses, and everyone is happy.
And while we're talking about boobies... it's kind of interesting how homosexuality becomes acceptable to males as soon as it is projected onto females, in other words, as soon as it corresponds with their own sexual fetishes.
I'm probably getting a bit far into Serious Business subjects here, but I've seen it pointed out before that there's this thing in our society where guys are set up so they pretty much have to spend their whole lives proving their heterosexuality.
Well, why not? I'm enjoying the Serious Business talk, so unless you don't like it, I don't have a problem. :)
And yeah, I came to the same conclusion. And I know it isn't my business to change anyone, but sometimes I still wish I could take a hammer to people's skulls and imprint it on their foreheads that gay, straight, bi, and every other sexuality under the sun do not shape a person's character insofar as that they are better/stronger/more capable/etc because of it.
You may notice I get a bit overly talkative on some subjects.
XDDD You act as if I'm not enjoying this. Which I do.
...uh, so I may have gotten a little carried away there, huh? >.> What can I say, I'm rather fond of this topic.
Haha, it's fine. I wholly agree with what you have said; it makes me a little happy to know I'm not off the mark with what I made that relationship out to be. And I'm sorry that it's always me making you phrase stuff and then agreeing with you--I'm just a little afraid of saying something stupid and coming across as an ignoramus.
However, I'll go out on a limb here and say that the manga scared me. I couldn't touch it after seeing the five-year-old-looking not-Dizzy Shinto chick with the left of her horrific melons bouncing this way and the other the other way, as if they're trying to escape from her chest. And the Gary Stu with a
crocodiledragon attached to his arm. And I'm sorry because I know the translation is one of your projects and a tremendous effort, but... I dunno. I can't quite bring myself to read it. Please don't hate me.And so I don't sound like a complete retard (if I can still save my neck?), I really liked how Ky changed from the original to "current" X-verse. I don't think I could have liked him as much as I do now if he had stuck by his black-and-white view of the world. One of my favorite endings is still the one from X+ story mode, where he "beats" Sol but still ends up looking like the one who got banged around the most, and tries teasing Sol about a rematch. I know this makes me all kinds of a dork, but I still love it.
and so the point of Overture is 'This is what would have happened if Ky was straight! Aren't we lucky it's all so completely stupid and contradictory we can ignore it?'
LMAO it does sound less tear-inducing when you phrase it that way, but... I like Sin. Wahwahwahwah. *dork*
And thanks. I'll try my best. ^^
no subject
Date: 2008-01-19 02:52 pm (UTC)I only wish I could work up some outrage over that stuff, but I'm just resigned to the fact that so much of the world still thinks that way, and it's going to be damn hard to get that to change any time soon. -_-
I mean, it's just a part of it, and one thing I always liked about GG was that it gives both segments of the gamer population something to fantasize about. The guys can have their boobies and the girls can go on about sexy abs and tight male asses, and everyone is happy.
Equal opportunity fanservice, FTW! Funny how it actually feels *less* gratuitous when they've got the good taste to pander to everyone at once.
Well, why not? I'm enjoying the Serious Business talk, so unless you don't like it, I don't have a problem. :)
^^; There does come a point where you have to make yourself step back and say "dude, it's not a serious social commentary, it's not an essay question, it's a game! Chill already!" Take it too seriously, and before you know it, people are bringing up Nazis and trying to turn the under-representation of racial minorities in sci-fi AU slash fic into a serious social issue (I only wish I was kidding), and I worry I never know quite how close to that point I am. >.>
I still wish I could take a hammer to people's skulls and imprint it on their foreheads that gay, straight, bi, and every other sexuality under the sun do not shape a person's character insofar as that they are better/stronger/more capable/etc because of it.
Ahh, don't we all know *that* feeling. And the shame is how easily even casual chat about a crack fighting game can remind you of it.
I can't quite bring myself to read it. Please don't hate me.
XD It's fine, the new characters are not exactly a selling point (and a little secret - half the reason I'm translating it at all is for the one chapter that's all Sol/Ky battle). For the record, you can cover just about all the good stuff (and avoid Mizuha's Tits of Stupid altogether) if you just skip straight to the last two pages of chapter 4 and keep going until page 15 of chapter 5. (Though pages 6-8 of chapter 4 are also a must just for the sight of Sol hanging around his secret lab in a lab coat and drinking tea *g*). The artist also draws an ungodly pretty Ky, which gets them a few points back, but not really enough to make up for the shear horror of their brainless new Sue.
I really liked how Ky changed from the original to "current" X-verse. I don't think I could have liked him as much as I do now if he had stuck by his black-and-white view of the world.
Totally agreed (hah, I'm doing this too, see? XD). The nicest thing about Ky is how much he's grown and developed even just in those couple of games.
One of my favorite endings is still the one from X+ story mode, where he "beats" Sol but still ends up looking like the one who got banged around the most, and tries teasing Sol about a rematch. I know this makes me all kinds of a dork, but I still love it.
If so, I'm a dork too. That scene was utterly adorable. ^_^
but... I like Sin. Wahwahwahwah. *dork*
...yeah, it's a problem, isn't it? XD I guess it really does say something good about the series that they can mess up so much, and there are *still* things left to redeem it. ^^;
no subject
Date: 2008-01-19 08:43 pm (UTC)I only wish I could work up some outrage over that stuff, but I'm just resigned to the fact that so much of the world still thinks that way, and it's going to be damn hard to get that to change any time soon. -_-
Well, it's hard to be constantly angry, but every once in a while I want to scream about it until someone understands. I guess it's a fault of mine--I just hate such baseless prejudice.
Equal opportunity fanservice, FTW!
Exactly. I like that very much... I always feel so left out when guys are allowed to ogle their boobs, and I get nothing. I mean, yeah, girls can be sexy and pretty, but I'd like something relevant to MY interests. I'm all for equality. XD
Take it too seriously, and before you know it, people are bringing up Nazis and trying to turn the under-representation of racial minorities in sci-fi AU slash fic into a serious social issue
WHUT. Scaaaaaary. Well, it's never good to get too worked up over something fictional, but I don't think we've been doing that here. It's actually a relief to be able to talk to someone who has something intelligent to say about GG and isn't only "LOL BOOBIES" or "LOL I'M GAY FOR BRIDGET" or "LOL 236 214 698".
It's fine, the new characters are not exactly a selling point (and a little secret - half the reason I'm translating it at all is for the one chapter that's all Sol/Ky battle).
Shiny. I shall do that then, thanks for pointing it out. *tries to find chapter with one hand covering eyes to avoid the monster melons*
The nicest thing about Ky is how much he's grown and developed even just in those couple of games.
*nodnodnod* Definitely. And I mean, in his case, it wasn't even a simple case of overcoming prejudices... he had reason to hate gears. I mean, that war must have been extraordinarily brutal. So he gets mad props from me for changing his views despite so many experiences to the contrary.
And I still wonder if he would at some point know about Sol. X-wise, I mean. Please smack me if I sound stupid, but I think he at least suspects something is Not Quite Right about the man. In my head, he has fought with Sol often enough (in a double sense) to be aware of at least a fraction of his capabilities. Of course Sol doesn't go out of his way to show off his superhuman aspects, but if we just look at the X+ ending I was talking about, where Ky is the one all ruffled, scraped and on his knees, and he was the winner of that match, then I dunno... I think he'd wonder. *hides*
If so, I'm a dork too. That scene was utterly adorable. ^_^
Yaaay. Let's be dorks together. XDDDDDD But seriously, I loved it, because in my eyes, it added such a depth to Ky's character. Something that goes beyond the "I want to smack you because I want to best you and you stole the Fuuenken". Which is why I'm baffled when people are convinced that they hate each other. I mean, even if you don't ship them, a certain rapport between them should be visible, right? Then again, I guess not many people are rabid enough to go looking for X+ translations and drama CDs... >___>
I guess it really does say something good about the series that they can mess up so much, and there are *still* things left to redeem it. ^^;
Yeah. XDDDD I love Izuna and Sin. I can't take Dr. Paradigm seriously because I saw his concept art and he looks like a naked budgie without his scolarly ornaments (I'm sorry, dear Iguanabird ). And I can always go into denial and imagine my fix of yaoi overtones. Yes. >__>
no subject
Date: 2008-01-20 10:57 am (UTC)Whatever that is, it's certainly not a fault. As much as it sucks, I just can't pretend I don't have any idea where it comes from, so I've hit the point where it can't even surprise me anymore :/ (but hell, even then it still makes me want to scream at people about it too often enough).
I'm all for equality. XD
Plus, it feels a whole lot less like they're just turning the girls (or just the boys) into sex objects when they're doing it both ways. Not to mention I'm sure they're aware how much it broadens their fanbase and all. *g*
It's actually a relief to be able to talk to someone who has something intelligent to say about GG
Oh, I hear you there. I've been in this fandom most of a year and I've hardly had anyone to talk to about it in nearly this much depth. ^__^
And I mean, in his case, it wasn't even a simple case of overcoming prejudices... he had reason to hate gears. I mean, that war must have been extraordinarily brutal.
Extraordinarily brutal, and it went on for a century and orphaned him as a child. And yet all it takes is Justice's little speech to him at the end of GG1 to make him start questioning everything, and by the time Dizzy shows up and Ky catches some info that she's gentle, he goes out looking for her hoping this'll be proof Gears aren't as evil as he'd always thought. Now why they ever thought they could improve on that by including some sappy romance I'll never know, but screw 'em. I like the GGX version and I'm sticking with it.
Please smack me if I sound stupid, but I think he at least suspects something is Not Quite Right about the man.
No, there I'm sure you're dead right. Ky knows damn well Sol's more than a normal human (Anji asks him point blank at one point, and there's this great scene in the manga chapter I mentioned too, quite aside from all the other reasons to think so). Post GGX and his revelation that Gears aren't necessarily evil, I'd find it very plausible that he could already have figured it out for himself, or find out without batting an eyelid (as I've seen a few of the better fic writers suggest). On the other hand, I think it's also possible that the idea of Sol being a Gear might never occur to him simply because he's known Sol so long that he's got it stuck in his head that there are humans, and there are Gears, and *then* there's Sol in a whole unknown category of his own. Actually, that last possibility is about the only way I can believe he hasn't figured it out yet, because he's not stupid and he's definitely got enough of the pieces to put it all together.
Which is why I'm baffled when people are convinced that they hate each other. I mean, even if you don't ship them, a certain rapport between them should be visible, right? Then again, I guess not many people are rabid enough to go looking for X+ translations and drama CDs... >___>
Everything I've seen of Ky and Sol makes me think they're both terribly conflicted about the other - they *like* each other, but they also infuriate each other, and neither of them know how to reconcile it. You really don't have to look far into the series at all for that to stand out.
I can't take Dr. Paradigm seriously because I saw his concept art and he looks like a naked budgie without his scolarly ornaments (I'm sorry, dear Iguanabird ).
See, I did like him, if nowhere near as much as Izuna. This is largely because I liked the idea of this dragon-bird-fish-monster thing who was more formally dressed and smarter than anyone else around (though I would have been able to deal with his design a whole lot better if just once in the game someone had said something along the lines of "excuse me, no offense, but you seem to be floating in a giant bubble of water, what the hell!?"), but mostly because them finally giving us him and his colony of peaceful Gears added a lot to the GG world. They've sort of vaguely implied before that sentient, functioning Gears should be able to exist, but we've never really seen any besides Testament, and it was nice to finally have a definite answer on the subject. (And, as you say, denial can fix a lot.)
no subject
Date: 2008-01-20 11:04 pm (UTC)You've spelt out what I didn't want to say for fear of sounding like I was complaining too much. I can stand it much better when both genders have fanservice... I'm a little sick of this hypersexualization of all things female, but as soon as I demand to see a sixpack, I get strange looks.
I've been in this fandom most of a year and I've hardly had anyone to talk to about it in nearly this much depth. ^__^
Ahh, I'm glad I'm not just being a nuisance. I just like... analyzing and debating and fanwanking stuff way too much. XD;
I like the GGX version and I'm sticking with it.
Me too. I actually thought the Ky-Dizzy interaction in X was cute. I just can't see a romantic tension growing there, not really.
Actually, that last possibility is about the only way I can believe he hasn't figured it out yet, because he's not stupid and he's definitely got enough of the pieces to put it all together.
I agree with you there. But no matter what the case, I just can't see him going "HOMG YOU'RE A GEAR HOLY VIRGIN MARY" like some fics have him act. I doubt if Sol finally came out with it (though I don't know if he would, at least not as a grand confession *eyeroll*), he'd be all that surprised.
Everything I've seen of Ky and Sol makes me think they're both terribly conflicted about the other - they *like* each other, but they also infuriate each other, and neither of them know how to reconcile it.
Word. And I can't ever really see them as being all sunshine and rainbows, not even if most of the issues they have with each other are talked over. I'm not saying they wouldn't get along, of course not--in a slightly roundabout way, Overture is a proof of that. But their personalities are very different in certain respects, and I think they're both damn competitive in their own ways... so I think there'd be a few good clashes then, too.
This is largely because I liked the idea of this dragon-bird-fish-monster thing who was more formally dressed and smarter than anyone else around.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I LIKE Dr. Paradigm. I just laugh at him every once in a while when my brain reminds me what he looks like under his robes.
And I really liked that touch with the sentient Gears, too. Dizzy was the odd one out, Testament was never really explained... plus, I like the idea of different Gears getting along together.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-21 02:19 am (UTC)And on the other end of the scale, you've got the deliberately yaoi-ful games/TV series where all the boys look like girls and there's hardly a real female character in sight (and you'd be pretty damn luck to see a sixpack there anyway, when the boys are so skinny and feminine). It's damn nice to find some middle ground now and then.
Me too. I actually thought the Ky-Dizzy interaction in X was cute. I just can't see a romantic tension growing there, not really.
And the idea that they'd take such a nice scene and go 'Wait, we changed our minds! What was really supposed to happen was they fell madly in love!' is just dumb on so many levels. But I know I've made that point to death already, so I'll just shut up quietly over here now. >.>
I agree with you there. But no matter what the case, I just can't see him going "HOMG YOU'RE A GEAR HOLY VIRGIN MARY" like some fics have him act. I doubt if Sol finally came out with it (though I don't know if he would, at least not as a grand confession *eyeroll*), he'd be all that surprised.
I can see him being more horrified by it if he found out before GG/GGX, and I can still see him having a good moment of shock if he found out later, but mostly in a 'why did I never realise?' kind of way. There's enough space for interpretation that all kinds of variations could be plausible (up to and including him having guessed it as long ago as the war and simply never quite believed or known what to do with it). But I'd personally find the minimal surprise options more likely, and more interesting in most fic too (and incidently, that looks like about what Overture wants us to believe too). Some writers build so much more angst into the Sol/Ky thing than there's any need to.
But their personalities are very different in certain respects, and I think they're both damn competitive in their own ways... so I think there'd be a few good clashes then, too.
And that would be exactly why about 75% of The Story of Pants on a Stick was them arguing about one thing or another. *g*
I just laugh at him every once in a while when my brain reminds me what he looks like under his robes.
I'm pretty sure his bio listed his robes as one of his most prized possessions. Sounds like he's pretty well aware of what he looks like without them too. XD
no subject
Date: 2008-01-21 12:00 pm (UTC)Oh gods, don't I know it. I found exactly TWO yaoi games where the guys look like GUYS, not like either frail little SOMETHINGS or giant hairy apes. Those are, coincidentally, also the only ones that give me a good, believeable and interesting story. Imagine that. Story in a porn game. All the others make me cry with their weepy little things and their wrong anatomy. I really don't understand the aesthetic appeal of turning men into prepubescent girls physically, and into complete and utter idiots emotionally/intelligence-wise. I see it all the time, in fanart and -fiction, and I just can't wrap my brain around this one. I mean, here I am, thinking I like guy on guy for the GUY on both sides of the equation. Obviously fandom thinks differently. I weep about what they do to Ky.
And the idea that they'd take such a nice scene and go 'Wait, we changed our minds! What was really supposed to happen was they fell madly in love!' is just dumb on so many levels.
Hey, it never hurts to say it again! Maybe somebody will listen! And I dunno, but I don't think of Ky as a love-at-first-sight type. I mean, if he were to feel attracted to Dizzy, I think he'd spend time around her and get to know her, instead of going all "HEAD OVER HEELS ROMANTIC 17th CENTURY POETRY etc.etc". And I think the same goes for him being interested in other people... I really doubt Sol/Ky developed like "Hyuuuh nice ass ILU" and mad sexxors to prove the twu wub.
*cough* Sorry, I was traumatized by the new arrivals on FF.net yesterday. >____>
I can see him being more horrified by it if he found out before GG/GGX, and I can still see him having a good moment of shock if he found out later, but mostly in a 'why did I never realise?' kind of way.
Of course, if it happened between GG and X, his reactions would be somewhat different. But what I meant was a full-body freakout, and I dunno, that just isn't Ky for me. I agree with you that he probably wouldn't be surprised all that much, or if he were, wouldn't show it that much.
Some writers build so much more angst into the Sol/Ky thing than there's any need to.
I don't know, there's plenty of resources for angst here, but not THAT. I'm not fond of the angst genre anyway, as the chances that a perfectly good character will into a weeping quivering gibbering mass are much, much greater than average.
And that would be exactly why about 75% of The Story of Pants on a Stick was them arguing about one thing or another. *g*
Yesssssssssss. 8D
I'm pretty sure his bio listed his robes as one of his most prized possessions.
Awww, poor Dr. Paradigm. Now I feel bad for laughing. XDDD
no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 01:09 am (UTC)It's damn weird, isn't it? Like they want to be able to label these characters as male, but would actually identify with them better if they were closer to female, or something. o_O So often you see pictures of characters who would make very pretty females in any other context, but they've been labeled as 'boys', so apparently we're meant to believe that. The minds of large branches of yaoi fandoms are strange and scary things.
I weep about what they do to Ky.
Y'know, I realised a while back my standards for above average art/doujinshi had been reset down around the level of "They remember Ky *can* actually fight, draw him so that he doesn't look less than sixteen, and let him look like he's maybe *enjoying himself* during at least some of the sex parts." But then, yaoi fandom has such a bad record with this stuff at the best of times that I've been thrilled when I find *anyone* who's able to write or draw a properly kickarse Ky right from day one.
Hey, it never hurts to say it again! Maybe somebody will listen!
Not as long as I'm ranting about it in my own journal to someone who already agrees with me, I suspect. =P
but I don't think of Ky as a love-at-first-sight type. I mean, if he were to feel attracted to Dizzy, I think he'd spend time around her and get to know her, instead of going all "HEAD OVER HEELS ROMANTIC 17th CENTURY POETRY etc.etc".
Well, I'm guessing here - it's not like they actually *told* us how it happened, but the maths isn't very encouraging. The best reference I've found (still not certain about the source, but it seems to be what Japanese fandom is working with) says Overture's five years after GG, and the timelines don't seem to diverge until GGX, so Ky and whoever she is can't have known each other more than four years. Subtract off maybe three years for Sin to grow up (about the same time it took Dizzy) and nine months or so for pregnancy and... well, you don't really have much left over for courtship. :/
But regardless, you'd need to change a very cute existing scene to even get them headed in a romantic direction, and that's really not cool in my book.
I don't know, there's plenty of resources for angst here, but not THAT. I'm not fond of the angst genre anyway, as the chances that a perfectly good character will into a weeping quivering gibbering mass are much, much greater than average.
I may be mostly thinking of one particular writer (or two) who was almost all I could find recced early on in this fandom, and her work was all monotonously "Ky and Sol's love is completely twisted and screwed up and makes them *angst* like you wouldn't believe. The end." (><) And while I don't mind a bit of angst with my fic here and there, I'm probably not much fonder of it than you are. Gloom and misery is easy to write - bringing that around to a plausibly resolved (and non-cliched) ending takes a lot more talent.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 03:37 pm (UTC)You know, I would agree with you here, except I've stopped thinking of "ukes" as anything even remotely close to female. I have yet to meet any girl who would act as weepy, helpless, naive, and downright stupid. If you really want to break your brain, go read Okane ga Nai. That thing in there is not male, and it is most certainly not female, either.
I think what the ukefication has more to do with is that the "bottom" position in a relationship is viewed as a degrading position in society. Whether we are talking about women or gay men who like it up the ass, most parts of the population seem to have this notion implanted in their heads that this automatically makes them weak and helpless, or, in the worst case scenario, dirty and wrong. I mean, where else would the cliché come from that a man can sleep with however many people he likes, but a woman/gay bottom who sleeps with more than one person is a dirty slut?
Y'know, I realised a while back my standards for above average art/doujinshi had been reset down around the level of "They remember Ky *can* actually fight, draw him so that he doesn't look less than sixteen, and let him look like he's maybe *enjoying himself* during at least some of the sex parts."
Oh gods, don't I know it. What I've seen of Sol/Ky doujinshi frankly scared me. Maybe I can actually find some MANLY SEX when I finally go to Japan, heh. And this trend to draw characters younger than they are squicks me. I don't know why that is appealing, either. I mean, sure, Ky has a damn pretty face, one that could probably qualify for androgynous, but by holy, the rest of him most definitely looks male and if anyone tries to tell me that he looked like a frail little elf at sixteen, then I conclude that they've probably conveniently forgotten the "toting around that Bahamut-scale toothpick and fighting through hordes of monsters day in, day out" part.
Not as long as I'm ranting about it in my own journal to someone who already agrees with me, I suspect. =P
Well, I feel better about being able to agree with SOMEONE in the first place. *glances around nervously*
Subtract off maybe three years for Sin to grow up (about the same time it took Dizzy) and nine months or so for pregnancy and... well, you don't really have much left over for courtship.
*sigh* Yes, damn right. Which is another thing why I give this supposed "canon" close to no consideration, and don't really feel inclined to ship pairings like Axl/Ky or whatever. I mean, not to sound like a typical defensive yaoi fan, but with Sol/Ky, there's basis for a relationship. I mean, they know each other. So I can buy Ky being romantically attracted to him.
That's not to say that other Ky pairings can't be well done or can't work out, I'm just saying that for me, the author has to put in a lot more effort to make me believe in them than something called "love/sex at first sight".